Question:
— Dawn R. (posted on April 24, 2001)
April 24, 2001
I want to add something a woman from my support group emailed me.. she has
been great!!!! Anyway she had this to say and I agree:
Dawn, unfortunately there are a lot of people in the world that only view
what they want to view...it would appear that this person has taken
everything that could be bad...and formulated it to be the truth...I do
not
have time nor energy to waste on any of her responses. I except knowing
that she a closed minded individual who has not performed a true analysis
of the surgical procedure bariatric surgery. I found her statements to be
not
only condescending, but also contradictory to themselves. You need to do
your own analysis of the procedures so that you are more prepared to deal
with any future negativism that you encounter.
— Dawn R.
April 24, 2001
I don't know about everyone else, but my doctor was VERY upfront about the
possible risks and side effects. He said most side effects can be avoided
by following the diet and learning what your body will tolerate. He said
that his complication rates are very low. I'm going into this with the
understanding that things may go wrong. But I had a spleenectomy a few
years ago and the risk of complications/death was soooo much higher. I
think the risk really comes from NOT having the surgery. Ignore these
people. They are coming from the perspective that people who are obese
should be respected and not discriminated against, and that's a good
stance. However, they should be a little more open minded about the
options people may choose to control their weight. Perhaps they're worried
about losing obese people to "the other side." LOL.
— PT LawMom
April 24, 2001
I've read similar things which have upset me too. Here's the thing, some
of her statistics are correct, but as Barb noted, they're lumping
surgeries. I've noticed that different surgeries are better in different
situations. Many VBG patients can't eat everything, but this is sometimes
because of a problem with the surgery. Some rny patients dump, but clearly
not all of them. Nutritional deficiencies are more pronounced with the
more distal bypasses. This article takes the sum of these problems and
groups them under "the surgery". Nobody has all these problems
with the current surgeries. The NIH has very old info. too, i think the
last time they really looked at obesity and treatments for it was ten or
fifteen years ago. Where are these peole who regret the surgery so much,
why can't we hear from them directly? When people ask that question here
on the board, they get one or two responses and the rest are overwhelmingly
positive. I want to hear from the horse's mouth (so to speak), which
surgery did you have and what problem did it cause? Then we'll talk.
Sorry, but that article was almost abusive, got me worked up.
— kcanges
April 24, 2001
Dawn, I thought I was giving you some good information on discrimination
and the ADA with that link. I never imagined the site was anti-wls, or I
would have never recommended it. I'm so sorry she wrote you with such a
negative and misinformed opinion. To reiterate what I have said since
joining this site two years ago, morbid obesity is a terminal disease. We
should utilize every tool we are offered to fight it. Just as some
patients have negative effects from chemo, radiation, surgeries, or
lifelong inconveniences to fight their terminal diseases, we should be
given every opportunity to fight morbid obesity. Ethical surgeons should
tell us upfront what problems we may face. Mine did. My quality of life
is now excellent. Best wishes in your fight.
— [Deactivated Member]
April 24, 2001
In response to Kathryn's answer, I agree. Don't you think that if someone
had such a horrible time with the surgery, they'd be telling everyone they
could to avoid it? If it were me and I had all the problems listed in this
article, I'd probably be shouting it to the rooftops so that others could
avoid my pain. As it is, the only negative comments I've heard is from
people that had surgery many years ago that failed, and even they are
positive because they're having it revised. I don't think RNY has been
around long enough for anyone to truly know what the long-term effects are.
Surgeons are experimenting with how distal or proximal to do the bypass
and are developing the best technique. I think we should have confidence
in our own research and in our doctors' expertise rather than in the
opinion of someone who has so little firsthand knowledge about the
surgeries.
— PT LawMom
April 24, 2001
This is maddening to say the least. What exactly is this woman trying to
do, take away our free choice???? First of all, did you ask her opinion
about this surgery??? It doesn't seem to me that you did, she is supposed
to be advising people to their rights as far as discrimination. Where
exactly does she get off telling you why you shouldn't have this surgery. I
really cannot believe this letter, Personally I would think about showing
this to a lawyer. Really, I'm in shock. I would want to speak to someone
else in this company, they should know how she is representing them with
her own personal beliefs and experiences, this is much to personal of a
letter for an organization to send.If anyone of us were to sit and retort
to the numbered statements I believe that we can come up with pretty decent
information right here on this site to correct her statements. I'm afraid
my post would be way to long to reply to this, as much as i would like
to.Secondly I don't know about the rest of you, but personally I do not
want someone as closed minded as this person is to represent my rights
agains discrimination, be it size/weight or anything else.
Sorry to have rambeled on so, and truly sorry that you're having insurance
problems and have to put up with crap like this while seeking help.
Personally I think I would check out the possiblities of changing insurance
company, or picking up a second policy temporarily. I wish you the best of
luck in your journey.
— Lisa B.
April 24, 2001
Well, I just spent the last hour going over the NIH website. She is
referring to an outdated consensus statement that was first issued December
4-5, 1978 Vol 1 No. 10.........Shall I go on? Yes, I should.....Anyway.
On the website if you try to pull this up, it tells you it is out dated and
will refer you to the consensus dated March 25-27, 1991..... Among their
findings, the panel recommended that (1) patients seeking therapy for
severe obesity for the first time should be considered for treatment in a
nonsurgical program with intergrated components of a dietary
regimen,appropriate exercise, and behavioral modification and
support."been there done that". (2) gastric restictive or bypass
procedures could be considered for well-informed and motivated patients
with acceptable operative risks. (3) patients who are candidates for
surgical procedures should be selected carefully after evaluation by
multidisciplinary team with medical,surgical,psychiatric, and nutritional
expertise, "RIGHT!" (4) the operation be performed by a surgeon
substantially experienced with the appropriate procedures and working in a
clinical setting with adequate support for all aspects of management and
assesment, and (5) lifelong medical surveillance after surgical therapy is
a necessity. Limited success has been achieved by various techniques that
include medically supervised dieting and intensive behavior modification.
during such a treatment program, comobidity factors such as
hypertension,dyslipidemia, and diabetes mellitus can be treated by
conventional medical therapy in the patient with clinically severe obesity.
although weight may be reduced acceptably, "I quote" a major
drawback to the NONSURGICAL approach is failure to maintain reduced body
weight in MOST patients. The possiblity should not be excluded that the
highly motivated patient can achieve sustained weight reduction by a
combination of supervised low-0calore diets and prolonged intensive
behavior modification therapy. It gives all kinds of pro information along
with some drawbacks, but in plain black and white it does state the
benifits of of surgical intervention and it also admits the rate of failure
is much higher w/o surgical intervention. I half wanted to write the
person back, but again why waste my time, she has the access to the same
information and can quote the website, but obviously did not bother to read
the information, beyond what she wanted to interpret from and outdated
consensus.................ok, now I am done......
— toscamaddox
April 24, 2001
I think it would be great if all of you that have had
surgery"BOMB-BARRED" this woman with sucess stories, I have not
had mine yet, as I'm fighting exclusion, but When I do I will give her my
story!!!
— Cindee A.
April 24, 2001
Please don't get mad at Dawn for posting this, these are not her opinions,
she is only sharing a letter that upset her for obvious reasons. Much of
this is standard mis-information that you will find on the NAFFA website as
well. Many obese people get to a point where they know that diets and diet
pills are inneffective and often make things worse. They want to change
the pressure on young people that leads them to diet, regain, binge/purge,
starve, and all the other harmful things people do because they are not
accepted. It is understandable that these people are leary of a surgical
solution. As previously mentioned, some people only see what they want to
see. For years I beleived that WLS led to a five year life expectancy.
Why? Because one person knew someone who had WLS and died a few years
later. I don't even know if the death had anything to do with the surgery
but I was so convinced that all weight loss efforts were counter-productive
that I ruled out surgery without really looking into it. Now as I try to
decide for sure if this surgery is for me, sooo many people say "just
accept yourself". That is what this committee and NAFFA members are
trying to do, find acceptance. What they don't realize is that WLS is not
the enemy. Everyone who has this surgery has felt the pain of not being
accepted, but accepting our bodies doesn't mean we don't want to change
them. I've been perceived as a "happy fat person" for a long
time because I've tried to portray my "acceptance". I'm coming
out of the closet now to say I accept everyone but I don't like my obesity
and if there is a way to change it, I'm there. Let's try to accept
everyone for who they are AND who they want to be.
— kcanges
April 24, 2001
Okay...I have to put my two cents in too...lol!! I am currently pre-op
(May 29th BIG day)....but my surgeon explained at his seminar that we can
not accurately go by any of the "statistics" as a true showing.
He has been doing WLS for 20 years....one of the "founding
fathers" to the ABSA....however, he said that it was only in the last
6 or so years that WLS patients were being tracked...so any long term
surveys that people are quoting...are really not that true...they are only
a select few individuals that have been monitored....i.e., only a few drops
on water from a whole glass of water....just a small portion of the WLS
community....Now of course, this is just what MY surgeon says, others may
have their own comments....Good Luck to all, Luv Ya, Karan
— chance2lv
April 24, 2001
Boy does this letter work me up! I am struggling with this same attitude by
my PCP, who I am changing (of course!) I tried to educate him with my large
and CURRENT portfolio of FACTS, but he could care less. He misquotes and
alludes to horror stories and if it wasn't for this site I would not know
any better. (Thank you Eric et al.) I have actually been conversing with a
site member who has had considerable problems because of her wls choice.
She is however one in how many "WHO_HOOS!" I hear and read about
everyday???? I take her circumstance very seriously as it could be any of
us, but I know as well that these procedures continue to improve. It is
always a personal decision, not to be made lightly (no pun intended). I
wish I had enough energy to retort to her commentary to you, but others
before me have said enough. Don't let her ignorance get in the way of the
truth.
— Danine N.
April 24, 2001
I am 40 years old and for my entire life it has been socially acceptable to
publicly ridicule and humiliate the obese. (Boy, you've put on alot of
weight!!!) Publicly ridiculing one because of race or physical disability
is no longer acceptable and even illegal in some settings. Yet we still
allow the open degradation of the obese to continue. This Miriam Berg
person is obviously uninformed and very biased and prejudiced toward the
obese. The news media and a large group of the public at large want weight
loss surgery to ultimately be a failure. After all, if we continue to
achieve such wonderful success then we, the obese, will have proven the
media WRONG!!! We are perceived as "too stupid" to put down the
fork. If we are so successful with weight loss surgery then we must be
more intelligent than previously thought. Once weight loss becomes
achievable for the masses then who will the media, the comedians and the
public at large pick on? I'm so proud of myself and everyone who has the
courage and intelligence to take whatever steps necessary to achieve good
health and personal happiness including having weight loss surgery. I say
speak out at every opportunity about the benefits of weight loss surgery.
It's our time to shine and I won't let someone like Miriam Berg steal my
thunder!!!
— ronascott
April 24, 2001
Hi everyone: What I'd like to say to this BEAST OF A WOMAN I don't think
Eric would put it in print! You make sure you see your lawyer and sue her
a--! Never have I read such B.S.
— Lorraine L.
April 24, 2001
I must say I loved all the great posts. Ditto, and Amen to all of them !!!
I also am disgusted with what this woman said to you. Not appalled because
nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to discrimination of the obese.
Actually it sounds like a lazy person's way out of doing her job. Instead
of researching it a little bit, and it only takes a little bit, and trying
to understand your frustration, she basically just told you her view of
what she thinks are the true facts. This person needs to be reported to her
superior. She really is not competent at what she is there for !
It just gets me, how upset & negative some people can be concerning
this surgery. No one got upset when I had to have a hysterectomy, but
mention bypass surgery and they treat you like your psychotic. Obesity
continues to have the stigma that we are all low life, dirty, fat, lazy,
mindless, idiots. The thing about discrimination, is without it, the real
low life, mindless, uniformed,uneducated, idiots, would not have people to
put down so they feel better about themselves. That's what its all about!
So I have a feeling its gonna be around for a long time, unless all people
start feeling better about themselves. I no longer look to any human being
to complete or fullfill myself. All people are imperfect. In the meantime,
we need to continue to encourage one another, & be there for one
another, like with this website, it's a godsend. I mean have you noticed
lately how large this website is getting and how many members there are.
That is an obvious sign that something is lacking in our society, that tens
of thousands of people have to go to the internet to get encouragement.
Karla
— Karla K.
April 24, 2001
Yes.... I'm posting this anonymously because I don't want to get 'beat up'
by you guys, but..... most of what she says is true to a certain degree.
I'm 3 weeks post-op, and LOVE my new tummy.... would do it again in a
heartbeat, BUT if you read the letter with an OPEN MIND, you have to agree
the she's just stating some facts. I'll crawl back into my hole now.....
:-)
— [Anonymous]
April 24, 2001
I think this person is obese herself. I really think she's one of thoes
banner waving, "I'm fat and I love it" people. You know the ones,
they go on the talk shows, preaching about how they love themselves just
the way they are, and would never change it for all the tea in China. and
there shouldn't be the discrimination that there is. beceause they're
perfect the way they are. We al know the type. They are all miserable (WE
know) and feel powerless to change it, so they make a big production out of
being "FAT AND PROUD" to make themselves feel better and to have
a cause to hide behind. There is safety in nmbers, and I think this woman
is one of thoes trying to scare you out of something that will remove you
from her'team'. She sure knows a large amount of people who've been through
surgery, doesn't she? It's reverse discrimination, if you ask me. And since
nobody asked me, I'll be going now.....
— Danielle G.
April 24, 2001
I have to say that I mostly agree with anonymous and what she said. I do
realize that Ms. Berg went alittle "extreme" with her reason why
not to get the surgery but, if you think about it, most of what she says
has "some" merit. I am certainly not saying she is correct in
all her beliefs but, I am saying that she has her opinion and stated it as
much as most people on this site state the wonderful attributes of this
surgery and put down all dieting attempts and dieting programs saying they
don't work. I can't imagine why this is so upsetting to everyone. It's
one person's opinion and also, it's such a good thing that the original
writer is getting all the information she can before surgery. She will
just have to weigh this letter from Ms. Berg along with all of the other
information she has recieved from everyone on here. I honestly don't think
that this is a bad thing because if nothing else, it makes a preop person
think long and hard and make an informed decision.
In the end, I have to say that after 2 years post op, I have experienced
most of the things that Ms. Berg points to except the weight gain. I think
she exagerrates somewhat but is really not too far off base. I am not
posting this anonymously but would appreciate not being bashed for this
note. Thanks.
— Barbara H.
April 24, 2001
Being pre op I struggle with many of these issues, but what if I dont have
surgery? I am diabetic and we all know what those complications are, and I
am having some of them. Surgery and the weight loss that follows will
likely stop them in their tracks. They may not get better, but they will
likely not get worse....
Life is a balance and at this time being rid of diabetes is worth the risk
of long term complications. Long term WITHOUT surgery would likely be a lot
shorter and unpleasant.
I could list the typical morbidly obese persons problems, but we all know
what they are.
The question? Which one is better for YOU.
— bob-haller
April 25, 2001
Dawn...I love that you posted this letter...BECAUSE...this is the kind of
post that gets everyone to respond and you get more information to help you
decide on your surgery(and all the pre-ops out there)...I have lost 60lbs
since 1/16/01...weight that I have never lost in my life...YES..my eating
and life has changed...YES...it has been hard...YES...it will continue to
be hard..But I love it..I agree with a previous post there is some reason
this person was so forceful in her response(she has to be obese
also)...good luck(LAP RNY 1/16/01)
— Debora H.
April 25, 2001
Dawn: That letter stinks! Yous should ask that woman this question
"What about all those alcholics who have recieved kidney and liver
transplants only to begin to drink again and die anyway?" or this
question "What about all those smokers who have had surgery to remove
cancerous growths and tumors only to continue smoking and die of cancer
anyway?" It seems to me that no surgery is fool proof and no cure is
a sure thing but, I tell you this. I would rather die trying than die
because I didn't try at all. Certainly there are risks and side effects
taht one has to deal with. Certainly the chance tyhat the weight will come
back is there but, I for one feel that those risks and chances are worth
facing. My children are embarrassed by me, my love life stinks and I can
no longer afford the large, no huge, clothes that I am forced to wear. I
think I'll take my chances with the surgery and hope for the best.
— Melissa S.
April 28, 2001
After reading that letter this lady wrote to you, I feel like she wrote it
to all of us.I don't know about you, but I have had enough from people that
think that we don't deserve to be, speaking for myself only, normal. Unlike
some of the answers that were posted, I disagree. She is the reason we were
put though hell growing up. Her and a million like her were the ones
calling us names and putting us down because we were not like them. Maybe
I'm wrong.There will always be people like that. Always someone trying to
beat us down, but what they don't know is that we are a lot stronger than
they think, thanks to them. Putting up with them for all them years made us
who we are today. Sorry if I'm writing too much. Good Luck, Don
— Donald W.
May 15, 2001
For what it is worth, Miriam Berg, did state the risks involved with WLS,
and yes for every risk there are also benefits in favor of the surgery. My
surgeon stated up front that you can sabotage this procedure and create
problems for yourself, however, it you use this surgery as a tool, which it
is intended to be, then your path will be a successful one. Sorry, feeling
philosophical!
— [Anonymous]
May 22, 2001
— Kelly D.
May 23, 2001
I have never felt such prejudice for obesity until I started on this
journey. It is everwhere and I have spent my life with blinders on. What
she told you was a very jaded "PIECE" of the truth. She ought to
be ashamed. One response here quotes verbtim extensively the website she
references and if you do READ IT it is stating what we all know is true.
This woman wants to convience you with fear based on twisted misrepresented
facts. Breathe deep and go on...best wishes
— deborah C.
May 23, 2001
You know, Items 1-4 on that list she quotes are also side effects from
eating at Taco Bell, but I don't see any council position statements on
Taco Bell. Loadabull from that lady IMHO. In all honesty, reading the
outlandish response from that lady won't make me change my mind.
— Sara_AZ
May 28, 2001
I'm sorry to see that Miriam Berg's response to Dawn's request for
information has caused so much controvery. While it is the position of the
Council on Size & Weight Discrimination that we recommend against
weight loss surgery, it is also our position that we don't tell people what
to do with their lives. Please note that while Dawn received our opinion,
and we also tried to help Dawn develop alternatives to surgery and we
suggested she talk to Walt Lindstrom about insurance reimbursement.
We feel particularly strongly about these surgeries because we have seen
many people who were not adequately informed about potential outcomes and
side effects prior to surgery. Too often we hear about sales attempts, not
informed consent. There are wonderful weight loss surgeons out there, but
we've also seen some horrendous operations with little or no follow-up.
Most of the problems we see with these operations happen a number of years
after the surgery, long after follow-up has stopped in many offices. There
are different "success rates" for different operations; a study
last year showed gastric restriction alone had an 85% failure rate over 5
years (as defined by this study - did not keep off 50% of excess weight).
Most surgeons knew this already, this is why the Roux En Y became popular.
But this is a malabsorptive operation that carries its own problems. On
balance, we cannot broadly recommend these surgeries at this time. We are
not saying that any operation is a "bad" operation, only that
there are risks and benefits that must be weighed. We feel many surgeons
have not done a good job in helping us do this. We are in a coalition with
weight loss surgeons because we feel it is important for us to work
together to improve informed consent and also to develop methods that will
help consumers be better able to tell ahead of time whether any of the
operations will work for them. There are a significant number of people
who fail to maintain any significant weight loss, who go through the
operations and get little or no benefit, just as there are those who
receive tremendous benefit. We also feel that pharmacological treatments
will be available in the next few years that will be worth considering for
those of us with high-risk obesity. Finally, Dawn's letter touches on one
of the most compelling reasons for getting the surgery: we are often
unable to receive the medical care we need because doctors have chosen not
to develop the skills or equipment they need to treat us. Actually,
bariatric surgeons have been responsible for many of the advances in
non-weight loss surgery on large people. Regardless of how we feel about
weight loss surgery, I hope we can all agree that we deserve quality health
care no matter what our size.
Lynn McAfee, Director of Medical Advocacy, Council on Size & Weight
Discrimination
— Lynn M.
June 11, 2001
I believe that it is attitudes like this that keep insurance companies from
seeing that this surgery can be a life saver to a great many people. It
has not changed my mind. I hope this can be my miracle. I know it will be
hard. And I will have to work at it for the rest of my life. But for the
first time in a very, very long time i have hope.
— Tracey B.
June 11, 2001
Well it's NO wonder she's using a CPAP machine to sleep, just because she
can read & write means nothing, she should set up her psych eval to see
what's wrong with her self esteem and negative attitude, most of all to
drown herself in it. I rather be a guinea pig than sleeping with a machine
forever.
Who funds this organization by the way? I hope it's not my tax$$, if anyone
know please reply!
— [Anonymous]
August 2, 2001
Dawn, this person obviously does not have her facts together. Most states
do have mandated benefit for insurancae coverage for morbid obesity. They
set the criteria for patients and ins companies to review for approval or
denial. She is ignorant! And obviously living in the past! Gastic BYpass
has been so modified and improved in the past few years that many of the
terrible side affects no longer exist! Keep your chin up and move on to a
more positive site.
— [Anonymous]
August 4, 2001
I'm in shock after reading this post. I'm surprised that this Mariam Berg
would even want her name attached to such utter nonsense. Her
"facts" are so terribly wrong, as many have already pointed out,
that I can't believe she would even send such information to anyone.
Please, please, please anyone who is researching this surgery do not take
her facts as true and gospel. Yes, we have all heard of people who have
complications, and, yes, you may have complications, too, but you must get
ALL the facts before making any decision. On a personal note, I can tell
you that at three weeks postop I can eat anything I want (my doctor doesn't
require us to eat soft foods for the usual eight week period - we just have
to chew, chew, chew) and I DO NOT have to stay near a bathroom. I also do
not see a gastroenterologist after my surgery. I see my surgeon for the
rest of my life - for free. This is included in his surgery price; I'll go
back once a year after the first year, and I can call him at any time with
any questions or problems. The idea that my surgeon would advertise or try
and sell this surgery is ludicrous. I know there are some out there who
do, but that's why we all research so we can find a reputable doctor who
will have good follow-up care. So, again, research and research until you
feel confident in your decision.
— Susan L.
April 5, 2002
I am completely stunned! Sounds like she needs to do some research!
I cant help but to laugh at what she calls "logical" reasoning
for her
No. 3 excuse. She said "diarreah will be especially bad
smelling". Oh
my god! I guess we shouldnt get WLS because our bowel movements wont smell
like roses, huh? As if our pre-op bowel movement smell good. This
lady is a complete flake! I am embarrassed to be part of the human
race after reading that! LOL What a moron!
— Nicole0105
April 5, 2002
Lynn, this is in response to your statement regarding Miriam Berg's letter
to Dawn. While your response was much more conservatively and less
controversially worded I must say that I too believe Miriam's statements to
give the impression that the info she lists is the rule rather than the
exception. This is not correct. I also must tell you that I am 4 months
post op, the amount of weight I have lost is excellent but that is
"icing on the cake". What is far more important is the difference
in how I physically feel and most important the return to normal for the
first time in >4 years of ALL labwork, with NO MEDS required since
surgery. My PCP is beyond elated. Am I in the majority, much more so I
believe than the "unappealing" outcomes listed by Miriam. No
surgery is w/o risks, and no treatment w/o side effects. Some people will
have horrific experiences regardless of what disease they are treating,
some will have textbook outcomes. I have been blessed to have a textbook
outcome to date, I am so grateful for choices and opportunity. I now have
hope for a healthy future and I did not have that before surgery. It is
nice to know that I feel and look better too but very few people do this
for "looks" they do this for quality of life. I am an RN and I
second the need whole hardily for informed consent but I believe that
informed consent includes BENEFITS as well as risks. Miriams comentary only
included risks, some of which are very outdated and very low in percentage.
People that don't know I have had wls would never suspect and I have no
problem going about my daily life as before, except that it is easier now
because I don't hurt, and I don't tote a bag of prescription meds.
Thank you for letting me state my opinion as well.
— jsuggs
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